St. John Cassian's reading is about how people can improve their process of prayer, or how they can do it more effectively. For example, he says that "the aim of every monk and the perfection of his art tends to continual and unbroken perseverance and prayer." In addition, he says that people should rid their minds of any distracting or sinful thoughts and wordly temptations. Their prayers should be pure and genuine and could be more valuable if they are short and silent to prevent those distractions from invading the process.
St. Benedict talks about how monks should live in such a way to ultimately make their way to heaven. He emphasizes peace and doing good as an aim of life, perseverance in avoiding sin and other evil deeds, and being truthful and sincere.
Contemplate the following quotes from St. John Cassian and St. Benedict, respectively:
"For it rests on such foundations, then though heavy storms of passions break over it, though mighty torrents of persecutions beat against it like a battering ram, though a furious tempest of spiritual foes dash against it and attack it, yet not only will no ruin overtake it, but the onslaught will not injure it even in the slightest degree."
"That is why the Lord says in the Gospel: Whoever hears these words of mine and does like them is like a wise man who built his house upon rock; the floods came and the winds blew and beat against the house, but it did not fall: it was founded on rock."
How are the thoughts of St. John Cassian and St. Benedict similar and different with regards to prayer as expressed in the above quotes? Do you think that they are both inspired by the same passages in the Bible? Do you think that they would reach the same conclusion about what makes a prayer effective for an individual? So what do you think - can a person pray effectively without a strong foundation of faith?
Posted By: Lucy Downey, David Bond, and Lindsay Byrnes
someone once told me that he believes in a God but not in religion. he spoke of how we can on our own, without the faculty of church or people, develop a prayer life. he said prayer is integral and develops a person and that we should pray to God, but we do not and should not need an institution or a people to develop it or encourage it. i then proceeded to ask him if he prayed... he replied no.
ReplyDeleteobviously, there is a discrepancy between his conviction and action.
prayer and faith are inextricably bound, yet in a very curious way. prayer can be employed without the belief in whomever is prayed to. but as i personally understand it prayer without faith possess the intention and hope to develop a faith for if we did not truly desire to believe then we would not pray, for we would know that there would be no fruition to our prayer. prayer develops our faith and our faith develops our prayer.
Jesus healed others because they requested it of him (prayed) in faith. Even the, i forget who, but the guy who said " i believe Lord but help my unbelief." he did not fully understand nor did he entirely believe, but he asked that he should be graced with such a faith as to allow him to trust, believe and come to know. faith seeking understanding: because of our GOd given faith and through our exercise and exploration of it, we come to understand through his revelation. and his revelations are abundant and accessible.
i hope and pray that we may all forever pray the prayer to help our unbelief. that we may desire to desire him more each day, until we die. because we, while on earth will never come to fully understand or know, but we will indeed come closer and oh such joy, beauty and glory is there in drawing nearer to him who loves us supremely.
"draw close to him, and he will draw close to you."
back to my original point that i forgot i had mentioned (sorry this is so long) being involved in a faith institution helps develop and inform the individual and holds them accountable. through my Catholic faith i have learned what it means to believe and how to live and express that belief in a loving way. i would feel lost without direction or a focal point to direct my prayers. my catholic faith allows for a focus, through the means i believe to be the fullest: The Catholic Faith. guaranteed this focus and definition is found in many religions, but not so much as in the Catholic church, even if such doctrine has lead people away. most obviously, to elucidate, when we visited the Episcopalian church, i did not know where to focus my eyes, it seemed empty despite its beauty. they did not have the Tabernacle! a few of us noticed this, and it saddened us to know that they were so close yet so far.
sorry it was so long!
I think that a truly effective prayer needs a strong foundation of faith. Otherwise, you would just be "talking"! If nothing comes out of your prayer, you must keep praying, which requires a strong faith. It's the acronym PUSH: Pray Until Something Happens. You cannot just pray a noncommittal prayer, or even something one time, and really expect it to act in your life. Instead, persistence leads you to come into a stronger and better prayer life. The two quotes don't seem to be contradictory for me--it comes down to praying and living your life in an effort to make your prayer reflect your life, and vice versa.
ReplyDeleteAnd regarding Amber's post about the Episcopal church: it was quite sad that the Episcopal church had so much of the Catholic Faith preserved in it, and yet so much was just barely "off"! The Tabernacle was hidden away behind a pillar--which makes you question the point of even having a tabernacle, if no one can see it and say, "Christ dwells within there!" It was very sad and striking. There definitely was something missing in their High Altar, regardless of its beauty. A tabernacle is so important, and you don't even realize it till after it's gone.
The guy whom Amber is referring to is the father of a boy possessed by a demon in the Gospel of Mark. He comes to Jesus and asks Him that if He "can do anything" to have compassion and help his son. Jesus says to him: "If you can! Everything is possible to one who has faith." The man replies: "I do believe, help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:24). I have long treasured these words. They remind us that, though we may have faith, we are plagued with doubts, that though we may believe, we do not understand, and that, though we may have trust, it is never enough. We should cry out as this man does, asking Christ to help us more truly believe, to help us have complete trust. Jesus' words are also noteworthy. They help to show us that prayers really do matter, that they really do have power. And that is something we should not forget.
ReplyDeleteBoth men aim at strength of resolve and self-discipline while undertaking prayer. I would say that faith may not be necessary for effective prayer. Openness of heart, rather, would be necessary and faith would follow, for doubt is all to common in our inquiring nature and to not let the belief and doubt conflict and reach a faithful resolution would be detrimental to our understanding of truth.
ReplyDeleteThere is great danger in using the term "effectiveness" when discussing prayer. Prayer is not an empirical science, nor are the fruits of prayer. One cannot test, experiment, or expect immediate results from periods of prayer or mediation. This is why writings on prayer are always very broad and never completely specific. One would rarely find a Church Father saying "Pray this way, and kindness is immediately achieved." Prayer more than producing instant virtue, instills and cultivates dispositions to faith and virtue which cannot be dissected like an empirical science. Faith is a gift; prayer stems from faith, and one cannot precisely say what aspect of faith is a gift and what part is achieved through discipline and human volition.
ReplyDeleteThis hit many of the points that others I think are missing: that prayer isn't something that is mechanical in ANY nature, and that, despite this call for a deep foundation, I think prayer also has a partially spontaneous aspect, which can happen either to the strong Christian with a strong foundation or the fallen unbeliever breaking through to Christ. That distinction, however, is there on purpose. I'll explain later.
DeleteThe importance of the steadfastness and persistence of prayer and devotion, both personal and corporate, is a central theme in both St. John Cassian and St. Benedict's works, as is evident in these quotes. I agree with Jason, that a kind of tenacity in one's prayer is crucial to a healthy prayer life, and I love the point that Amber brings up about praying committedly despite our unbelief at times. To have this fervor for the Lord through prayer, in which we have access directly to the Living God, must be the driving force in our lives, and I think that that is what St. John Cassian and St. Benedict are getting at in their writings. St. Benedict takes this a step further and says that this same passion must permeate and become the foundation of the rest of one's life (both his personal life and his life in the community) so that all that he does he does for the Lord.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I just want to be a monk :)
I think that even those that do not have a clear/strong belief or faith in God can pray effectively. There are many forms of prayer, and all of them have a different effect on the mindset of a person. It depends on how the person prays, and I think a lot of that has to do with the sincerity that they put into the prayer. Many people think they can just pray to get a sign to make their lives better. If there is no empathy and true desire to understand, God may not answer quite as clearly (how do I know how he answers, though). Prayer is not a wishing well. It calls a presence of God to one's mindset. That presence often gives guidance in obvious and not so obvious ways from God. It is up to the receiver to interpret that guidance however clear it is to them. Where it might be difficult for one without faith is interpreting the goodness that God bestows on them through that prayer. That does not mean that prayer will not lead them into a faith in orderthe goodness that God bestows on them through that prayer. That does not mean that prayer will not lead them into a faith in order to understand that goodness. A great example of this is Abraham. His faith developed overtime. He learned to pray through his sincere belief.
ReplyDeleteIn reading Amber's comment, I began to think of why it is even reasonable to pray in the first place. In a sense, one could say, "I prayed to this jug of milk." The thing that was prayed for could happen and we could say "The milk jug answered my prayers," or the thing we prayed for does not happen and we could say "The milk jug didn't want this for me." It is unreasonable to pray if we don't know who we are praying too. So in a sense, some faith is necessary to pray. But what is faith? It can't be something abstract because essentially we could then say that a milk jug is what we pray to and either something happens or it doesn't. So when we ask does one need faith to pray or not, the anser is surely that we need faith. But what is faith? It has to be something concrete, an experience, a person we meet, something that indicates that this God that we pray to is real. Otherwise, prayer is unreasonable to begin with.
ReplyDeleteEhhh if we ONLY base our belief in God on the concrete and real, is it faith or is it a response to proof? You are obviously thinking of request prayer, in which we ask of God and he gives (always so generously). However, it's limited to only view prayer in this aspect. Much of the prayer the monks are talking about is contemplative and reflective prayer, in which we dwell with God or either ask God to help our sinful nature. These are things I can surely say a milk jug has no part, especially because of God, as Karen Armstrong put it, consists of the deep mythos of truth. The milk jug has none of that.
DeleteAlthough I see your point about the importance of faith for prayer, Gina, I'm not sure that I agree entirely that faith is necessary for prayer or that prayer without faith is unreasonable. For instance, I've known people who, in their despair and lack of faith, prayed because they were desperate for something but didn't know what. In their lack of faith, they still prayed because they were so desperate. So, although they didn't have faith, they were sincerely praying to see if they might gain faith or understanding from their prayers. Also, just the idea that we can pray for faith suggests that we don't necessarily need faith to start off with; in such a case, it would be as though we were grasping in desperation at thin air and happened to stumble upon the truth.
ReplyDeleteIt's important, however, to note that these people are praying in desire of faith. It simply is not "they don't have faith" because many times the desire can lead us straight to the faith, so at this point these people could even be caught in a tug of war between the desire for faith and faith itself.
DeleteI really like and agree with what Gina just said - we need some experience of faith in order to receive something from prayer. Then, from the interaction with God through prayer, we can develop faith. Prayer stems from faith, however simple/complex or "understood"/confused it may be. From this prayer, God helps steer us in the right direction and we can grow in our faith from this experience.
ReplyDeleteI also liked what Amber said about praying to help our unbelief, because that is virtually what prayer is for. We pray because of our unbelief for belief in aspects of faith and life. If we are actively trying to reach full belief and understanding, we will be praying devotedly and thus will be forever growing in faith and commitment to God. Prayer must be pure and genuine, in conjunction with peace of mind and body.
I think Rhodes brings up a great issue- what exactly is effective prayer? Sometimes it may seem as though our prayers never bear any fruit. I might pray and pray consistently for something and it may never seem like it is "answered". That is, it may not bear fruit that I can see or touch or feel in my life. But in my constant prayers, the continuous connection with God that I establish through the routine of my prayer, I grow closer and deepen my relationship with God. So even though my prayers aren't exactly answered in the way that I may have wanted them to, I still develop my relationship with God. I think that perseverance in prayer, the kind of prayer that St. John Cassian refers to and instructs on in his Conference, requires faith, especially because the answer that we want to receive from God may not necessarily be right in front of our eyes. If we have nothing that we can see or feel coming out of our prayer, then there is always the possibility that we will fall away from prayer and lose hope. Our faith gives us what we need to keep going, to realize that our prayers are not just a means to an end, but an actual end in themselves, as they are real opportunities to strengthen our relationship with God.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of the previous sentiments that prayer involves a deep sense of faith. When one prays, they are asking for something from salvation to peace on earth to be granted to them. In addition, in your prayer, there is in an intrinsic belief in something higher in order to understand and comprehend the act of supplication at hand. Prayer is also used in terms of strengthening our own beliefs that others have also pointed out. Prayer gives us purpose in our actions and prudence in our thoughts. There is belief found within prayer because it relies on asking and not only hoping but also believing in what can be achieved.
ReplyDeleteI think that some faith is necessary for prayer. This faith does not have to be in God or Muhammad or labeled being, but it is instead a faith in something bigger than oneself that is necessary. In order to pray a person does not have to be able to put on a label on what they believe in order to pray, as long as they have a sense of a greater power. Hopefulness is another aspect of prayer that I believe is equally as important as faith in a higher power. Hope is in many cases what drives prayer and without that hope, or even the hope to find hope, I find it hard to think that a person would pray at all.
ReplyDeleteI think that prayer is a very vague term that describes a lot of different ways intended to understand, glorify and communicate with God. These two Saints offer somewhat different accounts as to how to pray. Benedict suggests that our virtuous and holy actions are prayers that praise God in doing God's works and deeds here on earth. John Cassian says that we must have a pure and contrite heart to pray and connect with God. Both actions and meditations are prayers. I think that faith is necessary for prayer. I do not want to use the word "effective" because that implies finite answers or conclusions from prayer. As Merton suggested in the reading multiple times, he prayed about the same questions over and over and the response... silence. But anyways, if one does not have, at least, some belief that there is something greater than this finite world, then you cannot pray. However, the deeper one's faith is in God, the easier it is to find God in life.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Meg that prayer must involve faith in something, but doesn't have to be a specific being. Everyone has different ways of praying and prayer can be directed at the sense of a higher being or power. However, I think "faith" might be the wrong word. I think just having something or someone to direct prayers to is all that is necessary.
ReplyDeleteI think when we use the word "faith," we imply that a relationship is taking place. We use this word even in human relationships. For instance, I had faith that the worker at Chick-fil-A gave me an edible sandwich and did not poison it. This faith is the trusting of another. With regards to prayer, faith implies a relationship to a higher being, in which God first communicates to us, and we, trusting that He hears us, respond.
DeleteI believe that prayer is something that needs time and commitment. Faith is necessary to begin prayer and prayer gets more complex as ones faith and eventual seeking grows. Prayer does require perseverance and over time one can pray and truly get the "oneness: with God that is desired through prayer. However the faith does not necessarily need to be directed towards one being, just a greater power and through the exploration and perseverance of prayer one can become more faithful to one religion. One however to begin prayer most likely needs guidance which is provided by religion, but does not necessarily need to be present.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Caitlin that prayer takes a commitment. It is something that one has to seriously devote his or her time to doing. As Saint John Cassian says, devoting time to prayer and spirituality brings one closer to innocence. The innocence is necessary because the innocent do not have personal agendas. They live life the way that they think is correct and morally right. Living in such a manner brings one closer to God by establishing a connection to Him.
ReplyDeleteIf I were to nitpick at the wording, phrasing, and overall subtleties of these two quotes, I think I can try to make a connection with what you guys are saying. In St. John Cassian's quote, it describes the passions "breaking over it," and "attacking it," meaning that sin penetrated through the house, yet it did not fall.
ReplyDeleteIn St. Benedict's quote, the floods and winds blew and beat against the house, but not once did they enter into the house. I feel as though (and I could be completely off) the root difference is this prevalence of sin with St. John Cassian's; it is the acknowledgement that we are overwhelmed by earthly passions, yet with prayer as our foundation we won't be shaken by it. In contrast, the other quote implies that these sins will never even touch us because of the initial faith in God.
I'm trying real hard to grapple with these, figure out which seems more in accordance with the talks of faith, and maybe even draw my own conclusion, but I'm reaching a blank. In regards to prayer, however, St. John's does seem to jive better with what I perceive prayer to be, just based on the fact we acknowledge the weak environment and through humility have faith.
I do think faith is necessary for prayer, however, as the question poses it, I do not think a "strong foundation of faith" is necessarily required. We must clarify the terminology. For one, if you had no faith, no belief in whatever force or higher being, then there would be no reason to pray. If you did not have faith that your prayer would actually cause some sort of change (in yourself or in the world or outside of the world) because of a belief in some type of god then there would be no reason to pray. In this way faith is absolutely necessary
ReplyDeleteHowever, I have met plenty of people who do not have a firm foundation in faith and still pray. Prayer can be the instrument that helps them arrive at faith in a god. Someone unsure of their faith, unsure of what exactly they believe in may pray to something unknown in the hopes of coming to know the unknown. I have heard of others who are not certain of their belief who pray for help and guidance in their lives because they would like some aid.
That being said true, consistent, and fervent prayer is rooted in firm belief and strong faith in God. Knowing about who you believe in allows you to truly pray to what you believe in. And consequently, faith and prayer feed off each other. People can gain faith and a stronger belief in God by praying and a stronger faith in God can lead to stronger and more authentic prayer.
I think there is an argument to be made that faith is the starting point of a good Christian lifestyle. I agree with Jackie that prayer is a tool people use to develop faith, it's not an instrument of the faithful except to sustain their faith. There is of course, contrary to this, the concept of asceticism ( a life devoted to prayer and the service of God) but are the ascetics truly more pious than other christians? I say no, that each person is free to practice and understand their faith in different ways. While there are some things that must be conformed to in order to fall under a category of religion, people can have different interpretations of the limits and bounds of their own faith.
ReplyDeleteHere's my take on the original question...we have to recall the audience that both writers were writing to, and these were Monks who were basing their lives off of an extreme practice in which they would attempt to perfectly persist Christ's love. So, when I think both passages are reflecting on a good foundation for prayer, I think it is important to discern what exactly they are trying to avoid, which is this: Monks make the effort of prayer so frequently, the actual action of folding one's hands, and they do so even at some insane times of the day and night. Therefore, these comments are directed to one who could unintentionally feint prayer by being distracted or selfish. Therefore, in order to avoid this, one must have such a foundation in self discipline and selflessenss that their attempts at prayer aren't affected by distractiosn.
ReplyDeleteSo, why go so long on this point? Because both scriptural passages contradict the idea of the spontaneous or newly-discovering Christian. What does it feel like for a non Christian, or a sinner deep in troubles and far from the Church, to suddenly bequest a God whom they know little of and are unfamiliar with. This is still prayer because it has faith! However, it is far from having a strong foundation, but that's because those that are not common to prayer possibly find it easier to pray if they suddenly understand faith, since they are beset by temptations far more visible as compared to those unseen enemeies the monks dealt with daily. In other words, the sinful person is outward in being sinful, and thus his prayer is not as affected by temptatoins, since it is inward. However, monks live lives orientated towards the soul, so Satan would put up snares more frequently on that path.
As previously mentioned, I too agree that both men aim at self-discipline and strength. The focus on prayer is important because, besides the Eucharist, it is one of the most intimate forms of connection with God. In the quotes, I think they both basically say that prayer IS founded on faith, however their statements should be read in context. They were both monks, trying to reach a further understanding of God, so their form of prayer would be much different from, say, a newly converted Christian. I think that they are referring to prayer done by religious, who are seeking a more theological and spiritual understanding of their relationship with God. Prayer develops as faith is strengthened.
ReplyDeleteI do not think it is necessarily imperative for a person to have faith to pray effectively. While a connection with God is achievable through prayer, sometimes, other things are fostered as well: a new perspective on a current situation or new-found inner peace, for example. I know people who, without much faith, have turned to prayer when they feel all is lost. I think that while faith is obviously an ideal for prayer, sometimes, it just isn't there. Praying can and should be a starting point for faith, and not necessarily the other way around.
ReplyDeleteActually, I think praying at ALL is symbolic of true faith existing within a person. In the traditional idea of prayer, there's almost a necessary acknowledgement of God's power in the world, be it Interventionist or Sustained Creation. (this is true in the most frequent form of prayer: petitions!). And even if you believe in a Deist perspective, one can still pray in thankfullness. So in the traditional view of prayer, prayer requires and reflects a deeply-held faith.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, I believe it was either St Josemaria Escriva or Mother Teresa (don't quote me on that) who said, "Make everything you do a prayer." So tying in the idea of "Anonymous Christians," one can partake in prayer through their actions. And when those actions reflect truth, beauty, and goodness, then one could make the argument that they also require faith.
I agree with Rhodes' idea that the term "effectiveness" must be used cautiously. Often, we as humans do not understand the fruits that may come from our prayer or the graces that we may receive. In my own personal experience, sometimes it can seem like my prayers are not doing anything or that God does not hear me. However, this leads back to the idea of needing to have faith in order to pray. I do not think that this faith has to be great, but if we have some faith when we pray, we trust that God will hear us and that He will answer our prayers in His own way, often a way which we will not understand. If we pray without faith, in a way we are just testing God to see if He is truly listening. If one prays without faith, or at least without the intent of developing faith, the person is in a way closing themselves off to God. But for some, praying can be a leap of faith in its own way. I think that faith must either accompany prayer or that faith must already be present.
ReplyDelete